Tuesday, December 26, 2017

The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Introduction

The Bad Plus at the Dakota on December 22, 2017
Photo (C) 2017 John Whiting

On April 10, 2017, The Bad Plus – bassist Reid Anderson, pianist Ethan Iverson and drummer Dave King – surprised a lot of people by posting this on the band’s Facebook page and website:

A message from The Bad Plus to our fans and followers: We will soon begin an exciting new chapter in our life as a band. As of January 1, 2018, The Bad Plus will consist of founding members Reid Anderson (bass) and Dave King (drums) and new member Orrin Evans (piano). Original pianist Ethan Iverson will finish out the 2017 touring schedule in support of the album “Its Hard,” culminating in a New Years Eve gig at the Village Vanguard in New York City. 
The Bad Plus have always been a band in the truest sense a group of passionate collaborators with no single leader. That spirit will continue in full-force as we welcome Orrin into the group. This is not an act of replacement; no tryouts were held. Weve known and respected Orrin as a musician and as a person for longer than The Bad Plus has existed. His heart and his talents are simply a perfect match to continue our trajectory.  
A brand-new album featuring the refreshed lineup will be recorded this fall for release in 2018, with a supporting tour cycle to follow. The Bad Plus’ extensive songbook will continue to be represented at shows. We remain grateful to our supporters and invite you along with new listeners to be an integral part of our evolution and the exciting music it’s sure to deliver.

The band’s touring schedule for the rest of the year included its usual annual Christmas residency (for 18 years) at the Dakota Jazz Club in Minneapolis, followed by its usual New Year’s residency at the Village Vanguard in New York City.

Although the band will continue as The Bad Plus with Orrin Evans at the piano, Ethan Iverson’s leaving signals the end of an era. I wrote about that – and the band’s history, music, and impact on jazz – for the Minneapolis Star Tribune, in an article published on December 14, the Sunday before they came to the Dakota. I spoke with Reid, Ethan and Dave at length, and also with Lowell Pickett, owner of the Dakota, and Philip Bither, performing arts curator for the Walker Art Center, who knows contemporary music, knows the band and featured them several times over the years, mostly recently in a Walker commission with Bill Frisell.

Because I could use only brief quotes in the print article, I’m including the full interviews here, edited for clarity, minus chit-chat and off-the-record material. I’ve been listening to The Bad Plus, attending their concerts, buying their albums and following them almost from the start. I saw this as a moment in the life of a great piano trio that deserved a close look. Conducted immediately after they returned from an intense European tour in early December 2017 and just before they came to Minneapolis, these interviews are for the record.


The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Reid Anderson
The Bad Plus interviews 2017: Ethan Iverson
The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Dave King
The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Lowell Pickett (Dakota Jazz Club)
The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Philip Bither (Walker Art Center)

The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Reid Anderson

Ethan Iverson, Reid Anderson and Dave King
at the Dakota on December 21, 2017
Photo (C) 2017 by John Whiting

Date of interview: December 4, 2017

Pamela Espeland: According to Lowell, this will be your 18th Christmas at the Dakota.
[Note: Lowell Pickett is the owner of the Dakota Jazz Club in Minneapolis.]

Reid Anderson: Wow. I guess if Lowell says, that’s what it is.

PLE: What has it meant to you to play there every Christmas?

RA: It’s been very meaningful for us to feel the support of our hometown. That people have come back year after year, and the audience has grown, has been a localized symbol of what we set out to do: to be a band, to create a sound and to have actual fans in the world. It’s all we could really ask for.

What will we hear this year at the Dakota?

For the last 17 years, we’ve always done a combination of older and newer music. The first year it was all newer music. It’ll be business as usual in that respect. We’ll try to put out a combination of older songs and some of the later stuff as well.

Are you approaching this any differently because it’s your final Christmas here as the original configuration?

No, we’re not. There’s all this end-of-an-era thing, but that’s not the way we see it. Of course it is [the end of an era], and I understand putting it that way, but for Dave [King] and I, the band is continuing. It’s not like we’re going to make this big, dramatic statement of “this is the end.” It’s not the end. It’s just a change.

Is there a secret meaning to the name The Bad Plus?


What was your plan when you started out as a trio? Where did you think this would lead?

When we started the band, everyone was talking about, “If only we could have a band that was a committed band. We could all get together and develop a sound, and have a cooperative group that can play group music, and develop a language and do what we do.” I think lots of people still talk in those terms.

We just committed to doing it. That was our main objective: to make this happen and commit for as long as we could. Even to the extent of turning down other work when we were just starting off, when we were paying money out of our own pockets to play concerts in the name of “we believe we have something here.”

The only way to make this happen is to have that level of commitment. We’ve done it. We’ve had an 18-year run of playing this music together, and we’re very proud of that accomplishment.

Your first album was “The Bad Plus” [2001] on the Spanish label Fresh Sound, and then “These Are the Vistas” [2003] for Columbia. That kind of blew things up. The Bad Plus were called the saviors of jazz and the destroyers of jazz. You got a lot of press attention, both positive and negative, including mainstream press. What was that like, and did it give you any second thoughts about what you were doing?

It was a surprise to us, as it was for everybody else. But we didn’t come out of nowhere. We were all in our 30s when that album came out. We had all been laboring in obscurity and making our own records and writing music for years before that.

By the time we made “These Are the Vistas,” we really knew what we were doing. We had experience under our belts. We had our personal aesthetics pretty much established, and our writing styles were very much there as well. It was an opportunity to record for a major label, and we were ready for it, and we had something unique to say.

I guess in a sense it was an idea whose time had come. We were just there. The combination of the kind of stylistic open-mindedness that we brought, and playing the famous cover songs as well – which was not unique to us, but I do think we brought a certain attitude and energy to it that was fresh and, dare I say, it was needed. Something needed to be shaken up. We were just in the right time and place to do that, and we had a sound that was personal.

The jazz world isn’t always receptive to a personal sound. They’re much more comfortable with something that they can easily describe and check certain boxes in terms of “this comes from this” and “this is referencing this,” and all that. But we were much harder to do that with. That was disturbing to some people and positive for others.

Having said that, I do think that people who were our detractors, a lot of them, if they’ve bothered to stick around, have come around to saying these guys [The Bad Plus] clearly weren’t the end of everything. Jazz has continued on in myriad ways, and we’re another part of that stream.

Reid Anderson
Photo (C) 2017 John Whiting
When did you and Dave and Ethan first start playing together?

We grew up together. Dave and I have known each other since junior high school. Ethan [Iverson] and I met in 1989 or 1990, when I was a student for one year at the University of Wisconsin—Eau Claire, and Ethan was still a high school student in Menomonie. We were introduced because Ethan needed to make a demo tape for something, and Ron Keezer, who was a percussion teacher at Eau Claire, put us in the same room together. We had mutual interests and hit it off. So we have a long relationship, but The Bad Plus didn’t start until 2000.
[Note: Ron Keezer is the father of jazz pianist Geoff Keezer.]

So we can actually put this on Ron Keezer.

Yeah, it’s Ron Keezer’s fault. [Laughs.]

Did you start playing together around the same time?

I guess around 1990, we got together once in my parents’ living room. That was an unremarkable meeting. We were just young kids all trying to push ourselves and push the boundaries, but without the skills or perspectives to do it very successfully at the time, like a lot of 20-year-olds.

But there must have been something there.

No. There wasn’t.

What happened then?

Ten years went by, and we all had been pursuing our musical paths and playing with each other. Ethan is on two of my records; I’m on three of his from the ’90s. Dave was doing some incredible things with Happy Apple in Minneapolis. I think what sparked it was when Ethan had a concert in Menomonie, and he called Dave to do it, and they hit it off. I remember Ethan coming back from that and saying he had enjoyed playing with Dave.

One thing led to another, and we thought – we know each other. Let’s see what happens if we play together. I was a big admirer of Happy Apple. That was kind of the original committed band. So we played at the AQ or something. It just kind of started from there. At that point, when we got together, we felt there was something there. Something we didn’t have to talk about that was there in the music. So we decided – let’s try to play together every couple of months and commit to that and make a record. It just kind of came together naturally.
[Note: The AQ was the Artists’ Quarter in St. Paul, which closed in 2013.]

The record was your first, on Fresh Sound. Had you recorded for them before?

I had done three records for them under my name, and Ethan had done several under his name. Fresh Sound was an important label for a lot of New York musicians, giving a lot of us a chance to make records that no one else would’ve given us.

[Our first record for Fresh Sound as The Bad Plus] got us out there in the world and got us some attention. You can see from that first record that there’s something there. We already had a sound.

How many gigs have you played together? Has anybody kept track?

It’s a pretty big number at this point. We weren’t doing so many concerts in the earliest days, but probably by 2004 or ’05 it was starting to get up there. Let’s say on average maybe 100 shows a year. That’s just a wild guess. I’m trying to be conservative.

That’s a lot of shows, a lot of travel, a lot of road.


It’s a lot of music. Yet every time I’ve seen you, I’ve never once felt that you were phoning it in.

Good. I think that’s one of the things that’s kept us together. We don’t phone it in, and that’s part of a committed band and the group music ideal that we were going for. It’s like – we’re going to go out and not only have this sound, this tribal language that we speak together, but we’re going to have a collective energy with this music.

Part of it is because it’s always our music. Everything we play, every song, no matter who writes the song. We’re all playing our music. That’s a different energy from backing someone up or being the leader.

What are you leaving undone as the original trio? Is there anything you would’ve done differently?

Honestly, no. We’ve done so much, and there’s no single project or concept we’re leaving on the table.

Looking at jazz 18 years ago, and looking at jazz today, what’s different? And what part has The Bad Plus played in that?

It’s hard to say from the inside. I suppose we’ve probably influenced the sound of some of the music that’s happening these days.

I think bands are really important. I think group music is really important, and I hope we’ve kind of shown the way on that front. We’ve been an example of why you would commit to a band. This is something that can exist within this music, and it should.

We heard Brad Mehldau’s trio last night. They’ve been together for a long time.

The difference between the Brad Mehldau Trio and The Bad Plus is it’s the Brad Mehldau Trio. They play Brad’s music, and that’s incredible music, but it’s not quite the same as three conceptualists and composers and what The Bad Plus does and represents. Granted, it’s not so easy to get three people to cooperate on that level either, but that’s something we stand behind. We did this. We contributed this.

Who do you think is The Bad Plus’s closest imitator?

I have no idea. I’ve heard some things where I’ve thought they’ve clearly checked out The Bad Plus, but I’m not trying to uncover or discern who’s trying to emulate The Bad Plus.

People are saying GoGo Penguin sounds like The Bad Plus, but to me, they sound more like E.S.T., but then I think E.S.T. sounded like The Bad Plus.

E.S.T. was around before The Bad Plus. And E.S.T. stands for Esbjörn Svensson Trio, so that was different.

What’s your favorite The Bad Plus album and why?

You know I can’t answer that question. I like them all, for their own reasons. I honestly can’t say we’ve ever made a record that I think is a lesser record.

When I first contacted you about this interview, I said I would not be writing a breakup article. But I do need to ask about the transition. When did you know that a change was coming and Ethan would be leaving the band?

In a sense, I could say it’s been clear for a long time, but Ethan told us in January of this year that he wanted to move on.

Was that surprising to you?


Can you talk about the decision you and Dave made to stay together as The Bad Plus and keep the name?

First of all, Dave came up with the name. It’s very much our band as well. Ethan is one-third of it, but Dave and I have built this thing as well, and we feel very much that it’s ours. It’s not a life sentence to be in The Bad Plus. Ethan wants to move on, and that’s his right, and that’s fine, but in terms of what we’ve done and what we’ve built and what The Bad Plus represents, that’s something that [Dave and I] want to continue.

Why is Orrin Evans a good fit for The Bad Plus?

I’ve known Orrin since the early ’90s. I’ve played a lot with Orrin and he’s a friend. My stock answer is he’s a fellow weirdo. He’s a brilliant pianist, and he’s also someone who has really committed to a group aesthetic in his various projects over the years. He’s a very inspired player, and he’s the only person we considered.

Dave and I said – let’s see if Orrin will do it. We had no one else in mind, and we didn’t have any auditions or anything like that. We just said let’s call Orrin and see if he’s open to doing this. He said yes immediately, which I think was quite brave of him.

Maybe you know this, but John Murph wrote a piece in April 2004 for Jazz Times, responding to “These Are the Vistas,” that said – and this is an exact quote – “Meanwhile, equally daring and inventive black artists such as Steve Coleman, Jason Moran, Greg Osby and the bad plus Orrin Evans have had to toil for far more years to receive such praise.”

He wrote “the bad plus Orrin Evans”?

He did.

See? Written in the stars.

You and Dave have already made your first album with Orrin.

Yes, and I have to say I really think it sounds very much like The Bad Plus, and that’s the whole point. Orrin is a very different pianist from Ethan, but The Bad Plus is more than just some guys getting together. We’re overall very highly curated, and we’re very concept-based, and we’re very composition-based, and that’s also why Dave and I felt so strongly about continuing, because … how do I say this? What makes The Bad Plus tick is very much in our possession.

When we did the record with Wendy Lewis [“For All I Care,” 2009], it sounds like The Bad Plus. When Josh [Redman] comes in [“The Bad Plus Joshua Redman,” 2015], it still sounds like The Bad Plus. There’s a reason that we sound the way we do. It’s not an unconsidered equation.

Do you have any final words about The Bad Plus in its original incarnation?

No, because it’s not final.

I think our body of work speaks for itself, and it’s something we’re all extremely proud of. That’s pretty much what I would say.


The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Introduction

The Bad Plus interviews 2017: Ethan Iverson
The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Dave King
The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Lowell Pickett (Dakota Jazz Club)
The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Philip Bither (Walker Art Center)

The Bad Plus Interviews 2017: Ethan Iverson

Ethan Iverson, Reid Anderson and Dave King
at the Dakota Jazz Club in Minneapolis
on December 28, 2007
Photo (C) 2007 John Whiting

Date of interview: December 3, 2017

Pamela Espeland: This will be your 18th Christmas at the Dakota, which is amazing.

Ethan Iverson: Is that true? Is it actually that many?

PLE: According to Lowell it is. Your first Christmas there was 2000, so this makes 18.
[Note: Lowell Picket is the owner of the Dakota Jazz Club in Minneapolis.]

EI: I feel like we played the AQ and then the Dakota in 2001, but whatever. Close enough.
[Note: The AQ was the Artists’ Quarter in St. Paul, which closed in 2013.]

What has it meant to you to play there every Christmas?

There’s something about The Bad Plus which really is the Midwest. We’re three guys from that area. We’ve played all over the world, but I’ve always felt that when we played in the Midwest and played in America, there’s some element of our music that was understood on a folkloric level better than anywhere else.

The Bad Plus is considered a Minneapolis band. It is always referred to as a Minneapolis band, even though you and Reid have lived in New York for years. That’s something both Philip and Lowell made note of when I spoke with them.
[Note: Philip Bither is the performing arts curator at the Walker Art Center.]

[Dave King and Reid Anderson] grew up in Minneapolis, or outside the Twin Cities, and Menomonie is not so far away. All my relatives are from Duluth. My family is from Duluth. Calling it a Minneapolis band seems fine to me. Probably it’s a bonus, because Minneapolis is cooler than any city in Wisconsin.

Justin Vernon and Bon Iver have been helping to boost Eau Claire’s coolness profile.

I can’t believe how cool Eau Claire is now. When I left high school in 1991, Eau Claire was nothing like it is now. It’s incredible.

What will we hear this year at the Dakota? Are you approaching these shows any differently because this is your final Christmas here as the original trio?

We haven’t learned any new music this year, so it’ll be a lot of the hits we’ve played over the years. It’s not like a special roundup program or something.

What is the secret meaning of the name The Bad Plus?

Dave made up that name, and as far as I know there wasn’t really a secret meaning. It’s hopefully memorable. I think it is memorable, in that sense. It was really successful. Lorraine Gordon of the Village Vanguard called it a report card, which is about as good as I ever heard.

You’re going back to the Vanguard for New Year’s. How many nights will you play there?

It’s actually an extended run. We’re playing Christmas night through New Year’s Eve. Seven nights. It’s just the way it worked out, that my last night with the band will be New Year’s Eve, and on January first I’ll wake up a free man.

What was your plan when you and Reid and Dave started out as a trio? Where did you think this would lead?

I never expected to have a career in this music that was notable. My whole life, I assumed I’d just be on the fringe, because a lot of my great jazz heroes were and are on the fringe. So to have had this amount of exposure really shocked me. In the first couple of years, I was in a perpetual state of shock about it. It’s notable to have a career that lasts this long in one band.

We really had a breakthrough in 2003. We were written about in all the magazines, and there was still a Tower Records, and our album [“These Are the Vistas,” 2003] was in the lightbox at Tower Records, and everybody in the jazz world heard about us as this overnight sensation. That was a profound shock, and I’m still surprised that any of that happened.

“These Are the Vistas” was your first release on Columbia. You signed to Columbia after a rep saw The Bad Plus at the Vanguard. How did that happen?

Yves Beauvais [from Columbia Records] was signing acts. He’d moved there from Atlantic. He’d done really nice things at Atlantic as an A&R person, signing people but also producing the great box sets of both Ornette Coleman and Led Zeppelin. Both are really important to The Bad Plus.

He was sort of interested in what I was up to, and eventually I told him, “Yves, you’ve got to check out The Bad Plus. This is what’s happening.” He came to see us one time and didn’t believe it yet. But then he came back to the Vanguard show we did for the JVC festival in 2002, and he signed us the next day.

When “These Are the Vistas” came out, suddenly The Bad Plus was everywhere. You were praised by the mainstream press, which irritated a lot of jazz people, and you were vilified. It was an interesting mix of “we love them, we hate them, they’re saving jazz, they’re ruining jazz.” What was it like to be in the middle of that?

All my heroes took flak, so I also regarded haters as more or less an honor. Having haters means you’re doing something. People got upset about it, and that was a clear indication that we must be having an impact with our music, that it could create that kind of discourse.

So it didn’t give you second thoughts about the direction the band was going?

Not for me.

How many gigs do you think you’ve played together in 18 years? Did anyone keep an exact record?

No. It’s between 100 and 150 for at least 16 of those years. That’s a lotta gigs.

Now that you’re about to leave the band, what are you leaving undone? Is there anything you would have done differently?

[Pause.] That’s the problem when there are three leaders. At some point, people aren’t on the same page. Reid and Dave are still on the same page, but I’m not on the same page. We’re opposites musically, too. Personally and musically.

What would you have done musically?

[Pause.] The two things that come to mind are I’m very historically focused, and I guess if the group had all wanted to be interested in digging out the history, that would’ve been good for me.

The other thing is that I think there’s a real element of pop music in what we do, and I could’ve used more of just playing pretty music at some point. We had real incredible power playing clear, direct music. At some point, it was almost too avant-garde for the circumstances, as far as I’m concerned.

I read somewhere that you hadn’t even heard Nirvana’s “Smells Like Teen Spirit” before the band decided to record it.

Frankly, to this day, I have very little technical or spiritual interest in rock and pop. I just barely know anything, still. That’s part of the problem personally, too.

Ethan Iverson, December 2017
(C) John Whiting 2017
Looking at jazz 18 years ago and jazz now, what’s different, and what role do you think The Bad Plus played in that?

When you’re inside it, when you’re on the road playing 150 gigs a year, it’s hard to get an assessment. But there are people who will stand up and say, “Jazz is great, it’s better than it’s ever been, long live jazz!” That’s actually not the way I feel about it.

I feel like it’s a hard time for the music, it’s a hard time for a lot of stuff. A blend of esoteric and popular is hard to find. I think we have stuff that’s very populist and stuff that’s very esoteric, but that sweet spot in the middle is difficult, not just in jazz, but in the American arts in general.

That’s why we [America] ruled the world in the 20th century culturally. We had this mix of high and low. We owned it all because it was so great. And then at the 21st century – I guess it’s not the American century anymore. It’s like we’ve lost our magnificent balance of stuff that’s really complicated and stuff that’s really direct.

Do you think The Bad Plus made a difference in music in general? Do you think you paved new ground?

People have said that. I can’t really know that myself. I’m just doing it. I’ve heard music that’s influenced by us, for sure. Definitely, I’ve heard stuff and thought they checked out The Bad Plus. At the same time, I guess I’ll be hyper-egotistical and say I wish we had been more of an influence than we seemed to be at times.

The truth of the matter is we do have fans. We have people at the Dakota that come to see us time and time again, and it’s not just because we’re favorite sons. It means there’s something about our show that’s entertaining and you have a good time even though it’s avant-garde jazz. And that seems to me the crucial message. That’s what Miles Davis and Thelonious Monk and Duke Ellington were, too – that blend.

We’d have to take this on a case-by-case basis of who’s doing what out there now, but I do feel that’s essentially the message of The Bad Plus – “We like this, and you’re going to like it, too.” I’m dumbfounded at times, when I’m checking out some modern jazz and that kind of engagement seems to be off the table.

Do you mean the engagement between the artist and the audience?


Who do you think is The Bad Plus’s closest imitator?

Mostly European groups. There’s a group called GoGo Penguin that has kind of a big following. I don’t think there’s too many famous groups. I’ve heard things from Vijay Iyer in the last decade that I thought sounded like he checked out some Bad Plus.

Have you played with him?

He’s a piano player, so no.

He’s done some double bills with Craig Taborn. Do you think you might explore that?

You never know. He’s not on my list of collaborators.

Who is?

Right now, I’m trying to find some great young musicians to form a new group with. I don’t feel like I can do another piano/bass/drums trio after this. The first thing I’m doing that’s more like my own project is a duo with Mark Turner, the great saxophonist. We’re putting out a record on ECM and we’ll be touring that next year. But I think that’ll just be a season, not a long-term thing. We’ll see how it goes. Mark has his own band. He’s busy, so I’m lucky that he’s doing this with me.

I’m writing a piano concerto that will premiere in April with the American Composers Orchestra at Zankel Hall. The Mark Morris Dance Group will be touring a piece called “Pepperland” which I wrote the music for. It’s like an hour-long dance suite with a relationship to the album “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band.” It’s sort of hard to explain until you see it, but it’s not a cover of the Beatles. It’s more like a meditation on the swinging ’60s. It’s got an interesting band, with theremin, trombone, soprano sax, two keyboards, drums and vocal. We did that in England last year in Liverpool. It was commissioned by Liverpool and it was a huge hit. That’s going to be on the road quite a lot the next couple of years.

Is it coming to Minnesota?

There’s no date for Minnesota yet. I’m hoping it will; we’re playing it all over. I played the Northrop [at the University of Minnesota] with Mark Morris back in the day, but that’s so big. What would be the right hall for us there?

Northrop is not as big as it was. It was completely redone, and they cut more than 2,000 seats out of it. It’s completely different. … You’re starting a new blog, Do the Gig, In addition to your blog Do the M@th.

Yeah. One thing about The Bad Plus was we were in the old system, where we were written about in the New York Times even before we broke through. We had coverage. And then we got signed to a major label. All those things can’t happen anymore. How can a young group even do it anymore?

There are so many great musicians in New York. They keep on moving here, and I’m interested in the written word and jazz, but I’ve never really done anything with younger musicians because I’ve been mostly historically focused on my own writing. But I thought – let me just try this out.

I’ll give it a six-month trial period. I’ve got some interest. It’ll have a splash page with just club listings and what’s happening in the city, because there’s no single online source for that in New York City. Incredibly, there’s no one stop where you can find out who’s playing jazz around town tonight. And there are about 20–30 worthy gigs every night. And then I’m trying to encourage people to write simple reviews, not crazy praising or blaming; just sort of like what’s happening. Because a lot of stuff is happening and I don’t even know what’s out there. I feel a little old. There are some references here I don’t know.

I do think the discourse around New York jazz needs a boost of something, so I’m going to try to do it with this. We’ll see if it happens. Most new websites fail, so we’ll see. I’ve decided to give it a shot.

You’re also writing for the New Yorker. Will you continue doing that?

Yes. I have three pieces so far in the New Yorker at the Culture Desk. My literary agent said, “You want to write a book. Why don’t you place some articles in a mainstream publication first?” So I got the New Yorker out of the gate, which was incredible. You can’t really do any better than that. The goal is to do four to six pieces for the New Yorker, and then double down on writing a book about the music.

What will your book be about?

It’ll be about jazz. A history. I feel like there’s stuff about the way the music was created that still isn’t understood that well. I’m not saying I understand it perfectly either, but in my mind Duke Ellington and John Coltrane and Miles Davis and Thelonious Monk and all these other greats, they were the great music of the 20th century.

The book would put that in a perspective where we can say, in a more academic sense, this is why it was so great. This is why this [music] is in the canon.

Who are you writing it for?

It wouldn’t be too academic, because I actually hate academia and I hate that writing and that sort of stuff. If I bring anything to my jazz writing, it’s the fact that I’m a player.

In the New Yorker articles, I’m trying to temper the wonkiness of Do the M@th. I spent 15 years being very technical at trying to do my homework, and now, with these New Yorker pieces and for the book, I’m trying to find a spot where I can talk about the music in an accurate way that someone who wants to learn about it will understand.

If you’re in it to win it as an artist, you have to take care of an incredible amount of miniscule details. But the art should communicate in a way that a lot more people can get it. And that’s what I’m working on with my writing, too.

Do you have a favorite The Bad Plus album?

The first three on Columbia still have a kind of weight. It was so fresh, and the engineering by Tchad Blake was so special, and there wasn’t anything else like it.

I think Reid and Dave feel like each new record has been better than the past. That’s not my feeling, honestly. I don’t know that the later records have so much charisma around them as compared to the first ones. That’s another reason to move on. For me, the statement was made.

Whatever happened to the Ornette Coleman “Science Fiction” The Bad Plus did for Duke Performances, then briefly toured? You also did Stravinsky’s “Rite of Spring” for Duke Performances and later made a recording. Is there a recording of “Science Fiction”?

I don’t think there was ever really a plan to record it, because the [Ornette Coleman] album is there. The album is one of the masterpiece jazz records. I think the point of the project was to play great improvised music live with some horn players we wanted to shine a light on – Tim Berne, Sam Newsome and Ron Miles – and introduce to our audience. So I think that was a live thing, really. There won’t be any kind of official release.

[Note: A video of a live performance of “Science Fiction” at the 2017 Jazz à la Villette festival in Paris is available here. A complete video of the Stravinsky at Duke Performances has disappeared from the places where it used to be, probably because the studio recording came out on Sony in 2014. Watch four short excerpts here.]

When I contacted you about this interview, I said I would not be writing a breakup article. But we need to talk a little about that. Leaving the group was your decision?

It absolutely was my decision.

Was there a specific turning point for you?

I felt personally too uncomfortable, and also felt like the statement had been made.

Any final words?

Just that I fully expect to be back in Minneapolis, with playing of one sort or another, sooner rather than later.

I enjoyed your solo performance at the Dunsmore Room last year. Did you?

It was hard because I don’t do that very much. If I could get in a groove of doing that kind of thing, it would feel really natural and really enjoyable. I sort of have this [desire] in me that is like an educator, with the writing, talking to the audience, that sort of stuff. And if there’s a way I can put all that together without it being too didactic, that’s something I’m thinking about for the future as well.

Aren’t you already teaching somewhere?

I did teach a few piano lessons a semester at New England Conservatory. I had seven students. I’d see them seven times a semester and teach them seven sins – my joke about it. I see it coming already that I’m going to be pretty active as a jazz educator. That’s going to happen. I’m going to Paris next year to teach.